Episode 22
The Fractional CFO Advantage: Expert Insights for Small Business Growth
In this episode, we dive into a topic that many small business owners overlook: the power of having a fractional Chief Financial Officer (CFO) on your team. I’m joined by Justin Boyd from Cash Flow Co-Pilots, who breaks down why a fractional CFO is so much more than just “fancy accounting.”
We talk about:
- The difference between a bookkeeper, an accountant, and a CFO
- Why cash flow struggles are so common (and so stressful) for small businesses
- How looking ahead with a financial strategy can change the whole direction of your business
- The peace of mind that comes from having someone guide you through big money decisions
Justin also shares real examples and practical advice for business owners who feel like they’re always guessing with their numbers.
Key Takeaways
- A fractional CFO gives small businesses access to strategic financial guidance without the cost of a full-time hire.
- Bookkeepers and accountants look at the past. CFOs help you plan for the future.
- Cash flow problems are one of the biggest reasons businesses feel “stuck.”
- Good financial management isn’t about spreadsheets—it’s about having a plan that helps you grow.
- Having someone in your corner who understands both the numbers and the business side makes decision-making less overwhelming.
Justin also shares his personal story about his shift from employee to business owner, and how homeschooling has allowed his kids more opportunity to learn about the world and themselves, while building resilience along the way.
To Connect With Justin:
https://yourcashflowcopilot.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100084415706531
Transcript
Why?
Speaker A:Hello, Bizfit.
Speaker A:It is I, Melody, your lady of business.
Speaker A:And today I had a great conversation with Justin Boyd.
Speaker A:I really wanted to understand what is the role of a cfo, a chief financial officer, and especially one that's fractional.
Speaker A:Most small businesses are not going to be able to afford to have a chief financial officer in your company.
Speaker A:That's supposed to be your role as the owner for a long time.
Speaker A:And yeah, you might have a bookkeeper, you might have a cpa, but they are doing separate roles.
Speaker A:You need somebody who's looking at the bigger picture of everything and that's what Justin does.
Speaker A:I have learned a lot about money over these past, I would say especially six years, very high level information about business finance.
Speaker A:But it doesn't mean that it has been easy to implement it.
Speaker A:I would say that for most people who are like me, very driven by a sense of purpose or a mission, and we want to help people and, and that's like our driver.
Speaker A:The money is secondary, but it can't be secondary.
Speaker A:I once was told by a mentor that a business can be a ministry, but it cannot be a charity.
Speaker A:And that has stuck with me because it is so true.
Speaker A:There are always areas where we're stronger and where we're weaker.
Speaker A:And finance has been an area of weakness for me because it's not what I enjoy, but when I get into it, I go deep.
Speaker A:So it's not that I can't do it, it's that I resist.
Speaker A:I have been learning more and more to let go of that resistance.
Speaker A:If you really want to have an impact in this world like I do, you have to have money to do that.
Speaker A:We talk about what the difference is between a CPA and a bookkeeper and a cfo, the common issues that business owners have, and you know, what are some of those issues and how to fix them.
Speaker A:We talk about when is the right time to hire a cfo.
Speaker A:And it was actually kind of a surprising answer.
Speaker A:So please enjoy my conversation with Justin Boyd.
Speaker A:Hello, business human.
Speaker A:I am your lady of business.
Speaker A:Melody Edwards.
Speaker A:Welcome to the Business Misfits podcast.
Speaker A:I am here today with Justin Boyd of Cash Flow Copilots, formerly of Boyd Executive Consulting, which is basically the same thing, Justin, because you just help business owners with money.
Speaker B:We're a fractional CFO firm and we just help business owners start strategically plan on how to, how to spend their money, how not to spend it sometimes.
Speaker B:But yeah, we are the trusted financial guide for all business owners.
Speaker A:And I met you because I used your services as a cfo.
Speaker A:And I think it's underrated.
Speaker A:A lot of business owners think you.
Speaker A:Well, I have a bookkeeper, I have an accountant.
Speaker A:What do I need a CFO for?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But we'll get into that because I think that there are many reasons why we need that CFO role.
Speaker A:And actually, is it fractional cfo?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's the technical term.
Speaker B:Not everyone knows what that is.
Speaker B:And it almost sounds like it's.
Speaker B:I don't know if it's bad, where it's like you're only getting a fraction of something.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:It sounds like a takeaway, but it's.
Speaker A:Like a fancy way of saying part time.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Not doing it all for you all the time.
Speaker B:You don't need someone like that 40 hours a week.
Speaker B:So that's really the design point is, like, you get the.
Speaker B:You get the meat that you need, and you don't need someone hanging around full time.
Speaker A:So the first question I always ask everybody is, are you a business misfit?
Speaker B:I would say that I am.
Speaker B:I was raised to have the typical 9 to 5 job.
Speaker B:My grandpa, my dad, my brother, they're all, I don't wanna say corporate soldiers.
Speaker B:Like, it's a negative thing, but it's, hey, you're gonna work for the same company for your entire life and you're gonna climb the ladder and save the money and live long and happy.
Speaker B:And I was always more entrepreneurial, and so I didn't know exactly what that would entail right away.
Speaker B:But I did start out doing some personal financial planning.
Speaker B:I did work at a bank for a little while, and then I did eventually get into the corporate world just to.
Speaker B:I wasn't sure what I wanted to do for a business yet, but I knew I enjoyed finance and I really needed to hone my skills and really learn a lot about it before I could do something with it on my own.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I did work at IBM for about 11 years doing strategic pricing and planning for North America.
Speaker B:About a $300 million portfolio there.
Speaker B:Did some cloud pricing, a bunch of different things, and it was great.
Speaker B:I learned a ton.
Speaker B:But I always had that bug inside of me where I was like, this doesn't feel right.
Speaker B:So, yeah, in.
Speaker B: In: Speaker B:So it was a crazy change of pace, but we needed a lot of changes and we decided to do them all at the same time.
Speaker B:I guess.
Speaker A:That's so brave.
Speaker A:I Love that too.
Speaker A:Like, I would definitely love to live that dream.
Speaker A:Yeah, I have a husband who probably would.
Speaker A:Wouldn't love to live that dream as much as I would, but there's hope, you know?
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:I think that's so cool, though.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You guys take your kids and you go all over the place, don't you?
Speaker B:Yep, we did.
Speaker B:We aren't anymore, so we did that for about four years, but it was very freeing.
Speaker B:I knew I wanted to start a business, so it was kind of like, hey, how do we start researching this?
Speaker B:How do we get.
Speaker B:Get out from underneath our comfort and where we were at and start exploring some things and traveling and talking to different people?
Speaker B:And part of it was finding a new place to live.
Speaker B:We were in Minnesota.
Speaker B:We knew we didn't want to stay there.
Speaker B:And then part of it was just an adventure with our kids.
Speaker B:We were decided to homeschool at that time.
Speaker B:And so we're like, hey, why not just go to all these places and actually show them where all this stuff happened and learn about it from.
Speaker B:From the source instead of reading about it in a book?
Speaker B:That was a big thing as well.
Speaker B:It was great.
Speaker B:We got a lot of side eyes and resistance from our family and friends are like, well, you're doing what?
Speaker B:But it turns out there was a huge community of people that already did it, and even more so now, I would say, since COVID Covid.
Speaker B:But it really allowed us to, again, think outside the box.
Speaker B:And it was very freeing to say, like, how do we want to design our new life and really take everything apart so we can put it back together the way we wanted it?
Speaker A:I would imagine that leaving the golden handcuffs of a company like IBM must have been really, really difficult.
Speaker B:It was a hard, emotional decision.
Speaker B:Even though I knew I had that bug there.
Speaker B:There is a lot of safety and security in that.
Speaker B:And I had met a lot of people.
Speaker B:I had learned a lot of stuff, and I had done really well.
Speaker B:They treated me.
Speaker B:It was nothing against them.
Speaker B:I had a great opportunity, and I was given a lot of opportunities and got to do a lot of cool stuff.
Speaker B:So it was almost like, why are you jumping out of a perfectly good plane to go skydiving?
Speaker B:It was that whole feeling.
Speaker B:It's like, what's wrong?
Speaker B:If it's not broken, don't fix it.
Speaker B:But I knew that it wasn't.
Speaker B:It was one of those things where it's like, I don't want to be here for the next 20 years.
Speaker B:Just kind of riding it out to retirement.
Speaker B:I felt like There was more to give, there was different things to do and that I wanted to experience.
Speaker B:And so I was like, it's, I have to do it now.
Speaker B:I don't want to wait another 10 years, 15 years, otherwise it's never going to happen.
Speaker B:But it was definitely tough and it was ground shaking and you feel that stability and security going away.
Speaker B:So it was a leap of faith, but in the end, definitely worth it.
Speaker A:So my journey in life has been the opposite of yours because I am now learning the corporate lingo, the way that corporations actually work, and understanding why that's important.
Speaker A:I was just at an event in Denver where I can speak the language better now.
Speaker A:But I came from small business world and it's such a different language than corporate world.
Speaker A:In a way, I'm kind of jealous of people who have that experience and still are able to take that leap outside of it because there is so much to learn there.
Speaker A:There's so many interesting ways that they figure out.
Speaker A:You said you were doing pricing.
Speaker A:Like that is something that most of us just kind of guess.
Speaker A:We guesstimate things or we figure it out in weird ways that our brains.
Speaker A:It's more like an emotional decision sometimes.
Speaker A:And so as you major transition into financial work is a chief financial officer, basically that's a cfo.
Speaker B:It is, Yep.
Speaker A:And really what you're doing, just so that we can make sure to explain it properly to people, is you're not doing accounting, you're not looking at taxes, but you're doing like a mix of the overview, right?
Speaker A:Of everything.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a good way.
Speaker B:If you're a CFO for a company, especially a small company, you're doing a lot more than what we specifically do in our business.
Speaker B:You're.
Speaker B:You're responsible for everything from paying the bills, doing the taxes for the accountancy, overseeing the accounting and the AP and the AR and the bookkeeping and all the compliance and risk and everything.
Speaker B:We are, I would say it's more of a CFO consultant where we provide guidance, that trusted guidance, and we help you make decisions, we help fix problems, and we help you do things strategically to set yourself up for success in the future, become more profitable, fix issues.
Speaker B:So it is different than a bookkeeper.
Speaker B:Bookkeeper is super necessary.
Speaker B:But what they're going to do is they're going to code your transactions, they're going to make sure everything is put in the right spot and then that's it.
Speaker B:They'll say, here's your report.
Speaker B:They might walk you through a little bit about trends and Things like that.
Speaker B:But it's very backward looking.
Speaker A:It's reactive.
Speaker B:It's reactive and it doesn't actually solve anything.
Speaker B:So, and, and then a CPA, again, super necessary.
Speaker B:We're not CPAs.
Speaker B:You have to have someone that's going to go to bat with the irs.
Speaker B:You know, whoever's signing your tax returns, they need to know what they're doing.
Speaker B:They get into all kinds of stuff with depreciation and, you know, tax compliance and just all kinds of, hopefully strategy a little bit with you.
Speaker B:But most CPAs, at least the old school ones, are like, hey, give me your numbers at the end of the year and I'll do my best to save you as much money as I can.
Speaker B:But they're not planning with you forecasting and saying, hey, let's do a road map.
Speaker B:Let's figure out when we should do different things to minimize taxes for the coming year or the future years.
Speaker B:So what we do is we take the bookkeeping is sort of the foundation.
Speaker B:We come in and we say, okay, let's dig into what's been happening, let's diagnose any problems, let's read between the lines.
Speaker B:We can see stuff that a normal business owner can't see in their books.
Speaker B:So we're going to find stuff and we're going to say, hey, it looks like there's some weird trends happening here as some problems here.
Speaker B:We're going to take that and we're going to help you actually fix problems.
Speaker B:So the first part is really an understanding.
Speaker B:How do we help simplify complex financials so that you can understand in layman's terms what's going on, what's good, what's bad, what do we need to look at deeper?
Speaker B:And then we help you fix those problems going forward.
Speaker B:So we can say, okay, hey, it looks like you're, you might be aware you have a cash flow issue or a profitability issue or whatever it is, or you might not be.
Speaker B:Let's figure out what the root cause of those things are and let's address those and fix those together.
Speaker B:And then the other big thing we do is we help look forward.
Speaker B:So we're taking everything that we know from the past.
Speaker B:We're taking our current situation, our current decisions, and then we're actually doing forecasting out into the future to say, hey, based on everything that we know, here's actually where we're headed.
Speaker B:And the biggest thing about that is you can make decisions better by looking into the future and then reeling it back to today and saying, hey, I don't like that future.
Speaker B:I want that to be a little bit better.
Speaker B:What can I do today to make that better?
Speaker B:You can't do that by only looking backwards.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:The other thing that comes down to helping business owners is just helping them make.
Speaker B:Be comfortable with where they're at and also making decisions so they'll say, hey, I want to scale.
Speaker B:I need to buy a truck, I need to hire someone.
Speaker B:What does that actually look like?
Speaker B:And how does that impact my financials?
Speaker B:We can map all that out and say, okay, well, if we did this now, here's what it'll look like.
Speaker B:Maybe we should wait.
Speaker B:Maybe we should work on this thing first and then do that.
Speaker B:So it helps make those decisions and it really helps give the business owner peace, you know, peace and ability to sleep at night, because they know that there's someone that's watching their blind spots.
Speaker B:There's someone that's guiding them through all that stuff.
Speaker B:So that's why the new term cashflow copilot, which we're rebranding to is really.
Speaker B:It really speaks to that is we're not.
Speaker B:We're not the business owner, we're not flying the plane, but we're going to help you and we're going to give you navigation.
Speaker B:We're going to be there right by your side through thick and thin and help bring calm when you're stressed and clarity when you're confused.
Speaker B:And we're really going to help you navigate all that and make decisions and plan for the future.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:From my experience, I would say the financial aspects of business.
Speaker A:Well, in my world of home service, that was the biggest issue, I would say, for most small business.
Speaker A:Anybody who starts a small business, we don't tend to come from.
Speaker A:We went to Harvard for finance, and now we're going to start a home service company.
Speaker A:And so we really are learning from a million different sources, a million different people.
Speaker A:Not everything that people say is accurate.
Speaker A:I've learned that the hard way a few times.
Speaker A:And so having somebody who really does understand the finances and beyond, because I've had a lot of bookkeepers in my life, I've had a lot of CPAs.
Speaker A:And what I've found is what you said, unless they worked in the same company, they're not really working in tandem.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker A:And they're never really helping me look forward.
Speaker A:I'm lucky that I have somebody now who really does.
Speaker A:But that's rare out of all of the decades I've had in business.
Speaker A:It's really the rarity.
Speaker A:But I never heard of A fractional CFO before I met you.
Speaker A:So yeah, it's like you're offering a service to people that is so needed and just really can change the growth trajectory of their business.
Speaker A:What are the common issues that you tend to see in small business worlds that people should be paying more attention to?
Speaker B:I would say the common things that people typically come in the door with, number one, is cash flow.
Speaker B:They'll say, I look profitable, everything seems good, but my bank account isn't growing.
Speaker B:And I don't know why that is.
Speaker B:Number two issue is just confusion.
Speaker B:And like you alluded to earlier, I'm making decisions based on my bank account at any given week or a gut feel.
Speaker B:And I don't know what to do next in what order to do things.
Speaker B:And I just, I don't have a plan.
Speaker B:I'm just sort of winging it because I'm very good at what I do, my service.
Speaker B:I created this business, but like you said, I didn't go to school for finance and things like that.
Speaker B:So those are two big things.
Speaker B:Just the running everything by gut feel and then which traditionally leads to then the cash flow issues, which is the other big thing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So they'll come in and we really focus on educating about where cash comes in and out.
Speaker B:We map out every dollar in the business to figure out where is it going in, where is it coming out and really provide an education along with guidance of like, here's what we should be doing to start moving the needle in the right direction and fixing some of those things.
Speaker B:And if you have a seasonal business, it makes it all that much more complex.
Speaker B:When you, when you have slower seasons and you have to plan for that as well, that that adds another layer of complexity.
Speaker B:Those are some things that typically business owners are aware of when they come in and what we will help them with or what we typically uncover are different than that.
Speaker B:It might be a pricing issue, it might be a compensation issue, it might be debt that they're not.
Speaker B:Their debt posture is just not in a healthy spot and we need to figure out how to mimic or it should be a little bit better, eradicate some of those loan payments.
Speaker B:So we.
Speaker B:That's where the, that's where that comes in is we say, okay, on the surface it's a cash flow issue, but what really is causing that?
Speaker B:And there might be two or three different things that we can work on.
Speaker B:And so we try to tackle them one thing at a time and move the needle and then measure our progress on where were we before, where are we now and make sure we're moving in the right direction.
Speaker A:Yeah, the cash flow issue is real.
Speaker A:I can't tell you how many times, especially in my seasonal businesses in the past, where I would have tons of money in the bank account and then my brain is like, you're rich.
Speaker A:And then when I was not rich because I was never rich to begin with, it's just like all emotion.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then that's why I loved profit first and implementing that in my seasonal business as a methodology of cracking my money into smaller bank accounts.
Speaker A:But it just helped me to be more realistic about what was actually going on because we don't normally have a lot of time in our daily lives running a business to check all of these things.
Speaker A:And I still think tracking cash flow can be really difficult for small business owners to do.
Speaker A:So do you have any tips to just somebody who might not be able to start with you yet, but they are trying to figure out how to manage their money a little bit better?
Speaker B:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker B:I mean, yeah, we have tools and things like that, softwares obviously that we use that makes it easier.
Speaker B:But if you're doing it on your own, I would say my best recommendation is to download my 13 week cash flow forecast tool, just something in Google Sheets or Excel.
Speaker B:And it doesn't need to be super complex and it doesn't need to be exact, but it can really help you understand where the cash is coming in and out and it can force you if you don't.
Speaker B:If there are questions on what is our how are we collecting on AR and what are our loan payments and things like that, it forces you to go figure them out and then it really helps you see how the puzzle pieces fit together to lead to how much did my bank account change at the end of the day?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Forces you to forecast, which is another good thing.
Speaker B:How much do we think I'm going to sell?
Speaker B:How are our collections?
Speaker B:How long after we sell are we collecting?
Speaker B:You put in your direct costs, if you have labor, materials, things like that, and then some of your fixed expenses below that.
Speaker B:What are my fixed expenses?
Speaker B:That's sort of the P and L in a nutshell.
Speaker B:But a lot, a lot of people stop there and then they don't think about what about loan payments, what about owner distributions, capital investments, if I'm buying a vehicle or a pressure washer, a piece of equipment, what, how does that affect everything?
Speaker B:And so it forces you to kind of lay all that out and it'll say, here's what you started with, here's what happened in week one, week two, week three, and, and so it's 13 weeks is one quarter.
Speaker B:And so it is a forecast.
Speaker B:But it also is short term enough so that you have a better idea of what's going to happen, especially when you're getting into potentially a slower time.
Speaker B:So it helps you start to understand what do I need to sell to really break even?
Speaker B:Where are the things that are coming out of my bank account that aren't showing up on the P and L?
Speaker B:And it really helps you understand how all that fits together and then what things you can change to improve the outcome.
Speaker B:So that's, I would say an easier one.
Speaker B:It may not be easy for everybody, but it needs to be a certain level of detail in order for it to provide value.
Speaker B:So I think that's a really good spot to start.
Speaker A:And that's assuming that they are tracking their finances in something like QuickBooks to begin with and that they're email is accurate.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:If you're not, that's number one priority.
Speaker A:You know, it's interesting, I have accidentally learned a lot about just QuickBooks in general because I'm the one who knows the business the best, right.
Speaker A:So I know the categories the best.
Speaker A:And I have always been kind of shocked.
Speaker A:I assumed at some point QuickBooks would just be like perfect.
Speaker A:And I've never found that perfect moment of QuickBooks.
Speaker A:Is that a myth or is it actually a thing that people can achieve QuickBooks Perfection?
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I, I would say it's, I wouldn't expect perfection in the area of finance, but we just try to get to as close as we can and we try to always make improvement.
Speaker B:It depends on the bookkeeper, obviously.
Speaker B:But regardless, QuickBooks, depending on what you got going on, it can always be a little bit behind time wise and things might not always be categorized correctly and the more you do in it, you might be connecting it to your CRM and have syncing issues and things like that.
Speaker B:The more complex it gets, the less perfect it can be.
Speaker B:But I would say if you're, let's say 95% of the way there, I would be satisfied with that.
Speaker B:And if you have a CPA that knows the other the rest of the 5% that can kind of figure that out, that's fine.
Speaker B:But yeah, I would say you can get very nitpicky as well.
Speaker B:It has a lot of detail and you can.
Speaker B:And I don't think you have to have it 100% in order for it to provide a lot of value.
Speaker B:Just getting it Started and getting it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:As complete as you can.
Speaker A:That might be the most helpful thing that you ever say to anybody.
Speaker A:Because I think most of us who are not naturally financially gifted or don't understand, we just assume that it has to be perfect or else.
Speaker A:I don't know, I have an all or nothing mentality.
Speaker A:I know a lot of my business friends tend to have that.
Speaker A:So we do go into the hyper detail.
Speaker A:And just giving us permission to not do that and just be at 95% is extreme.
Speaker A:Extremely helpful.
Speaker A:So thank you.
Speaker A:When is the right time to hire a fractional cfo?
Speaker A:Like, where are you?
Speaker A:I guess would you be looking at somebody's monthly revenue as a guide or their.
Speaker A:Their gross profit?
Speaker A:I don't know what it would be.
Speaker B:It depends on if it's the right person and they're at the right stage and they have the right mindset.
Speaker B:That's really what matters the most.
Speaker B:So what I mean by that is someone who either emotionally feels or financially feels stuck and they're not sure how to get unstuck, but they want to get unstuck or they're ready, they're just killing it.
Speaker B:They have all the energy.
Speaker B:They're like, I'm going to grow, I'm going to scale, I'm going to do all these things.
Speaker B:That's another good sign that you should bring someone in because you need someone to tap on the brakes when you need to tap on the brakes, but allow you to hit the gas when you hit the gas and really organize all of your entrepreneurial energy into.
Speaker B:We gotta make sure this plan is sound.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because we don't want you spending energy in the wrong areas or making decisions now that might impact you a year or two down the road that you're gonna have to unwind.
Speaker B:So we wanna make sure that, yes, we want that energy and we just wanna maybe nudge you in some different ways and help you make some decisions along the way.
Speaker B:So I would say that if you have that right person with the right mentality and the right desire to grow in the future, that's the biggest thing that makes the relationship work really well.
Speaker B:It is probably challenging for someone who's under a half a million dollars of revenue.
Speaker B:We have clients that are under half million and we're actually working on structuring things that make it more accessible, more affordable, being creative, but kind of giving you what you need to get started and get past that threshold.
Speaker B:But I would say average client is around 2 to 3 million.
Speaker B:But our breadth of clients is anywhere from A half million up to 10.
Speaker B:We're not like, hey, you have to fit into this mold.
Speaker B:Because every situation is different, every business owner is different.
Speaker B:And so we really try to meet them, where they're at, to say, what's the issues you're dealing with?
Speaker B:Where do you want to go?
Speaker B:And then we'll figure out, okay, here's a plan we can put together to get you that.
Speaker B:But I would say, yeah, the most important thing I mentioned is really the mindset of the business owner.
Speaker B:And if they have every, a lot of the other things under control, we can help with the financial part.
Speaker B:But if they're also like, I'm not bringing clients in the door and I can't find employees, that makes it a little bit more challenging.
Speaker B:But if, if they're really good at running a lot of those things, but just need that, that copilot, that's when we can come in and bring that last puzzle piece.
Speaker A:I think that kind of guidance is needed, especially when you want to grow or scale your company.
Speaker A:Because I've seen some people who do it the hardest way, they don't want to take on any debt for their business and they, so they work extra hard.
Speaker A:It takes them more years than if they had maybe strategically taken on debt.
Speaker A:And then you see people who take on too much debt.
Speaker A:So is that something that you see?
Speaker A:Is that the planning that you're talking about?
Speaker B:And yeah, that can definitely be a part of it for sure.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:You want to always have balance in everything that you do, right.
Speaker B:So typically if you're going all one way or all the other way on anything, debt specifically, it's, it's challenging.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So debt, debt is a good tool as long as it's used intelligently.
Speaker B:And we stress test it and say, okay, what if our sales didn't get to where we think they are?
Speaker B:What if they are 20% lower?
Speaker B:How would that look?
Speaker B:We still have to make these debt payments because they're going to, they have the right to our, our money before the, the shareholders do, before the owner does.
Speaker B:So how can we make sure.
Speaker B:We're stress testing that to make sure that we, we know the bookends, we know, okay, this is the bad situation.
Speaker B:And then if we really kill it, we could be here.
Speaker B:So we don't want to get anybody in a spot where they're in trouble.
Speaker B:But we also need to take some risks and to have a little bit of leverage at different times in order to grow.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So there's not again, a one size fits all there's not a silver bullet.
Speaker B:It's really a matter of understanding their specific situation, where they're at, and then mapping that out to say, okay, here's what it looks like if we did this, here's what it looks like if we did that, and then make a recommendation based on that.
Speaker B:But we never say, like, hey, you should be at 30% debt to income, or we never have these lines in the sand where we're like, this is where you should be.
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:It doesn't work like that with small businesses.
Speaker B:It doesn't work like that, frankly, for large businesses.
Speaker B:So we really try to take a unique approach and look at everything individually.
Speaker A:That makes total sense.
Speaker A:Well, let's switch gears and talk about the timeline of your life.
Speaker A:So you mentioned it a little bit, but what.
Speaker A:What did.
Speaker A: What happened in: Speaker B:2010 was a big year.
Speaker B:I had worked at doing personal financial planning.
Speaker B:I did that for three or four years.
Speaker B:It got to the point where we were being asked to do things that weren't necessarily in the up and up.
Speaker B:They weren't what's best for the client.
Speaker B:It was more in terms of, hey, we need you, you gotta hit your numbers, you gotta get sales, and you gotta do whatever it takes to get there.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:And so I moved to more of a.
Speaker B:An office role with that company, knowing that I didn't wanna stay there long term because of the way they were operating.
Speaker B:And I won't drop names, but it was time to be done with that.
Speaker B:So I took another job at Wells Fargo Financial.
Speaker B:I actually worked there for a little while, started doing loans, home loans and vehicle loans and things like that, and helping people refinance.
Speaker B:So I gotta dip my toe in the pool as far as still in the personal finance arena, but a little bit different than doing investments, insurance, what I was doing before.
Speaker B:And then they actually closed down nationwide, which was crazy.
Speaker B: That was in: Speaker B:It was after all the crisis and everything.
Speaker B:And they had bought Wachovia, which was another branch that did a lot of the same things.
Speaker B:And so I think there was some redundancy there, but they basically got on a call with everybody from four different states, I think, and they were like, hey, you're all out of a job, we're just done.
Speaker B:And we were like, okay, good to know.
Speaker B:So the options that were given to us was, you can either go be a personal banker at a bank or that's about it.
Speaker B:We don't have anything else for you.
Speaker B:And so this was four or five years out of college.
Speaker B:And so I was like, I appreciate the opportunity, but I didn't go to school to do that.
Speaker B:The challenging part was again, the wife being seven months pregnant.
Speaker B:And so we decided to move out of state.
Speaker B:That's when I started with IBM.
Speaker B:So we ended up getting, I ended up going apartment shopping by myself.
Speaker B:I sent her a bunch of pictures and videos and I was like, what do you think of this?
Speaker B:What do you think of that?
Speaker B:And we still had a house in where we were living and it was given the market, we were going to lose money on it and we decided to try to rent that out.
Speaker B:But since we did that, we couldn't afford a huge place.
Speaker B:It was all kinds of stuff.
Speaker B:We ended up moving into this tiny two bedroom apartment, had the baby moved.
Speaker B:Two weeks later, we got down there, unpacked, three days later I started my job at IBM.
Speaker B:And I started with a bunch of people that are fresh out of college, they're coming in kind of fresh, and I'm competing with them to try to get a promotion, which ended up working to my advantage because I did have some real world experience.
Speaker B:But we had a brand new baby, a brand new city where we didn't know anybody, a brand new job.
Speaker B:And so it was, it was a tough time, I'm not gonna lie, it was a really tough time.
Speaker B:It was just fighting to survive at that point.
Speaker B:We ended up living there for 11 years and worked my way up in IBM and we met a lot of great people and so it was a great city to live in.
Speaker B:So that was a big turning point.
Speaker B:That again, it was things that looked terrible at the time led to blessings and other good things down the road.
Speaker B:In hindsight, had that not happened, I probably would have sat in the Wells Fargo financial job for a lot longer, which I didn't enjoy either.
Speaker B:It was not good, not a good situation for several reasons, which I won't get into, but it was, it led the way to the birth of IBM and had a great time there and was treated really well and got to learn a lot of good stuff.
Speaker B:So that was a big turning point in our life.
Speaker A: then what happened for you in: Speaker B: So: Speaker B:It was coming into the winter and the kids weren't really able to go to school because of all the restrictions and closings and things like that.
Speaker B:We had been talking about moving out of Minnesota for A while we did not plan on homeschooling, but I had also been thinking about a new job.
Speaker B:And so this was, this was one of those things where Covid was the final straw, where it was like, I guess this is what's happening and we don't feel it's right where we're at and we feel like there's something else for us out there.
Speaker B:So we decided to.
Speaker B:We bought an rv, we sold our house and most of our belongings and we hit the road and started homeschooling our kids.
Speaker B:I was still working for IBM actually, for another probably year remotely because everybody was remote at that point.
Speaker B:We were thankful to at least have that opportunity to have a little bit of a transition time.
Speaker B:We never pulled a trailer before, we never went camping as a family before.
Speaker B:This was, this was all entirely new to us.
Speaker B:It was, let's buy a 45 foot trailer and F450 and we know nothing about any of this, but we're just going to figure it out as we go and make.
Speaker B:So again, another challenging time.
Speaker B:This was more of our own choice, but we kind of threw ourselves in the fire and had to learn, learn on the fly.
Speaker B:And it taught us a lot of resilience.
Speaker B:We obviously ran into issues at different times, mechanical issues and travel issues and things like that.
Speaker B:And just trying to live with a family in a very small enclosed space and two dogs, by the way.
Speaker B:So it was a lot, but it was, looking back, it was some of the most amazing times.
Speaker B:We ended up going to, I think 29 different states and 18 national parks, parks.
Speaker B:And we met a whole community of people that did this full time and a lot of long lasting friends that we still have.
Speaker B:That was crazy.
Speaker B:But it was a whole reinvention of what we wanted to do with our entire life.
Speaker B:Where do we want to live?
Speaker B:What do we want to do for work?
Speaker B:We got to spend a ton of time with the kids.
Speaker B:Really strengthened our relationship with them.
Speaker B:It allowed us to see things that we'd never seen and our kids, most of their friends haven't seen, most adults haven't seen.
Speaker B:So it was a really unique thing.
Speaker B:And again, yes, it was our choice to leave, but there was all these doors closing and so we went to where the doors were opening and it was another huge blessing and another big turning point.
Speaker A:That's amazing.
Speaker A:Your kids are never, ever, ever going to forget those four years.
Speaker A:I mean, you guys won't either.
Speaker A:But I think of kids and their memories and how that's affected them.
Speaker A:What were the changes you saw in your kids over those years.
Speaker B:Yeah, I would say it's kind of a joke, but it's true.
Speaker B:The biggest thing that we hear now is your kids must be homeschooled because they.
Speaker B:This is from adults.
Speaker B:Your kids must be homeschooled because they look at me in the eye when I have a conversation with them.
Speaker B:They look at me in the eyes, and I was like, that's true.
Speaker B:That's true.
Speaker B:So they are very good at having conversations with adults.
Speaker B:They're very good at making friends.
Speaker B:They're more outgoing.
Speaker B:They are more driven to learn things on their own, and they're more inquisitive.
Speaker B:And also, they saw that, hey, you don't have to be held back by anything.
Speaker B:If you want to go here and see that thing or go try this thing, just go do it.
Speaker B:You're capable, and that's a big thing.
Speaker B:What we're trying to teach them is we don't need to have all the answers, and we also don't need to feel like there's this ceiling, you know, bounds and restrictions around us.
Speaker B:If you want to go try something new, let's go try something new, and let's go have experiences.
Speaker B:It really, I think, gave them a lot of value and experiences over stuff because of what we did, and also spending family time together.
Speaker B:So our biggest thing with them is God's the most important thing.
Speaker B:Next to that, it's people.
Speaker B:It's relationships, and then experiences, and then stuff is at the bottom.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So it really.
Speaker B:It helped us all realign around that.
Speaker B:And they're very.
Speaker B:I mean, they learned a lot through homeschool.
Speaker B:As much as they kicked and screamed at having to do it, it's.
Speaker B:They learned more in homeschool in an hour and a half every day than they did sitting in the classroom all day.
Speaker B:You know, nothing against public schools, but it's.
Speaker B:It was a huge thing.
Speaker B:We got to teach them to where they were at, and we got to just spend a lot of quality time with them, and we got to see them grow and really understand there's a big world out there and there's a lot to experience and just found a lot of joy.
Speaker A:Well, I will tell you a story of right before COVID my son was struggling in school.
Speaker A:He was in sixth grade, and so I pulled him out and I started homeschooling him, what was really almost unschooling.
Speaker A:But we still had him go for language class at school.
Speaker A:But then he'd ride his bike to a little office I set up next to my office at my.
Speaker A:You know, I had an actual office in town.
Speaker A:And he was learning the things he wanted to learn in the way he wanted to learn it.
Speaker A:And it was the best month and a half of his life until school shut down everywhere.
Speaker A:And then he was like, I'm not doing school if everybody else isn't doing school.
Speaker A:It was a really fun experience, though.
Speaker A:I have huge amounts of respect for parents who do homeschooling.
Speaker A:I know it's not the same as regular school, but for the kids who need that, it's.
Speaker A:It's not without its challenges, but it changes their lives.
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker B:And I couldn't do it myself.
Speaker B:You know, my wife is amazing.
Speaker B:She's a teacher by trade.
Speaker B:But even with that, it doesn't make it any easier when it's your own kids.
Speaker B:So if she was here, she'd absolutely say, like, it is exhausting, and it is challenging on a daily basis.
Speaker B:And it is something that.
Speaker B:It's one of those things where you feel like you want to quit every week and.
Speaker B:And you're only doing it because of the investment that you want to put into it, because you know what the alternative is and you know what the other side of it is when you come out.
Speaker B:It's like, I'm doing this so that they can grow up being confident people, not having to worry about, you know, a lot of the bullying.
Speaker B:We can tailor your learning to where you're at, and we can work on stuff and shaping you as a person a lot more.
Speaker B:But it's.
Speaker B:It is so challenging, and I feel bad.
Speaker B:I try to help as much as I can, but during breaks, during the day or, like, at night, it is not for the.
Speaker B:The faint of heart.
Speaker B:And I work with a lot of business owners who are stressed to that level, and it's very similar.
Speaker B:It's a very challenging job.
Speaker B:And I'm super thankful for her that she's sticking with it, because I do see the benefit that it's had with our kids.
Speaker A:Bryn is very exceptional.
Speaker A:That's your wife?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:She's an exceptional person.
Speaker A:I can.
Speaker A:I can tell that about her.
Speaker A:So my son goes to school now again, but I want him to be using his creative gifts and to really focus on the things that school isn't always going to highlight, because I want him to come out of school and be a confident human who can have conversations with adults and is caring and compassionate.
Speaker A:And he taught himself to weld last year.
Speaker A:He's 15.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker A:He's just like that kind of kid.
Speaker A:I'm really Proud of him, but.
Speaker A:But also his parents, like us, kind of giving him opportunities to learn.
Speaker A:Because we both know that once you hit, you know, 18, it's not like you're suddenly an adult grownup or anything.
Speaker A:Or 40 something.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Not an adult grownup.
Speaker B:So, yeah, however old I am, I still don't feel it.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:Well, we have come to the last part of the podcast, which is the misfit minute, where I'm just going to ask you some really super simple questions that you shouldn't even have to overthink at all.
Speaker A:It could be easy.
Speaker A:It could not be.
Speaker A:But no pressure.
Speaker B:I'm ready.
Speaker A:Ready.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Early bird or night owl?
Speaker B:Night owl.
Speaker A:Introvert or extrovert?
Speaker B:Introvert.
Speaker A:More time or more money?
Speaker A:More time saver or spender?
Speaker B:Saver.
Speaker A:Workaholic or recovering workaholic?
Speaker B:Recovering workaholic.
Speaker A:Adventure or relaxing?
Speaker B:Oh, man, that's tough.
Speaker B:I would say relaxing by a little bit.
Speaker A:Things or experiences?
Speaker B:Experiences.
Speaker A:Phone call or text?
Speaker B:I have appreciated phone calls more lately.
Speaker B:I'm trying to push that, so I'm going to vote that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Plan ahead or go with the flow?
Speaker B:Plan ahead.
Speaker A:Hands on or delegator?
Speaker B:Hands on.
Speaker A:Compete or collaborate?
Speaker B:I would say collaborate.
Speaker A:Sweet or savory?
Speaker B:Sweet.
Speaker A:Quick thinker or overthinker?
Speaker B:Overthinker.
Speaker A:Well, you didn't you.
Speaker A:Actually, that was the last question I was gonna say.
Speaker B:Is that, is that ironic that I came up with that real quick?
Speaker A:Yeah, seriously, people, really, it takes a long time to answer those questions sometimes.
Speaker A:Well, I'm so grateful that you came on today and just that we had this conversation about money.
Speaker A:I think for most business owners and especially misfits, money is a hard topic and definitely needs to be talked about more.
Speaker A:But you're one of those people who has a lot of integrity.
Speaker A:I trust you and I know that you're really trying to help people in the work that you do.
Speaker A:And so I always want to shout out people like that and I think you deserve that.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I appreciate it and I appreciate you having me on.
Speaker B:It was a lot of fun.
Speaker A:Listen, Bisfit, if you believe in the mission of this podcast, I need you to like and subscribe right now.
Speaker A:Pause this.
Speaker A:Go find the podcast.
Speaker A:You might already be there, which is easy.
Speaker A:Just go like and subscribe.
Speaker A:And if you really, really believe in it and you want Bisfits to unite and change the whole business world, please rate it.
Speaker A:Rating is the best way to get the word out to attract more like minded misfits like you and me so that we can overthrow the takers of this world who currently dominate the business universe.
Speaker A:Now, I know I sound like I'm some courageous lady of business.
Speaker A:I am not.
Speaker A:I can't do this alone, and I don't want to.
Speaker A:I need you.
Speaker A:And we need a coalition of fellow bisfits.
Speaker A:So do it.
Speaker A:Now, the quicker we take action, the quicker we can change our business world.
Speaker A:Now, let's go do great things, and I will see you next week.
Speaker A:I'm a misfit.
Speaker A:I'm a misfit.
Speaker A:I'm a misfit.
Speaker A:I'm a misfit.
Speaker A:I'm a misfit.
Speaker A:I'm a misfit.
Speaker A:I'm a misfit.
