Episode 21

Behind the Scenes of TikTok Fame: Singing, Algorithms, and the Business of Creativity

What really happens after you go viral?

On this episode of The Business Misfits podcast, host Melody Edwards sits down with the multi-talented Jenn Beaupre-aka Rozette-a celebrated vocal coach, singer, and performer who’s captured audiences from North America to Asia and everywhere in between. Together, they dive into what it means to be someone who forges their own path, prioritizing creativity, happiness, and human connection over the rigid formulas of mainstream success.

Jen shares the evolution of her career, from nurturing beginner singers to navigating viral moments on TikTok that transformed her client roster overnight. The conversation unpacks the tricky realities of building a purpose-driven business in the digital age, the ever-shifting algorithms of social media, and the vulnerability that comes with making a living from your passion.

They talk about:

  • The myth of overnight success
  • Imposter syndrome and creative self-doubt
  • Why algorithm changes mess with your head
  • Building a creative business that actually fits your life
  • What it means to be “witnessed” in your work

If you’ve ever felt like you’re faking it online, drowning in visibility, or trying to run a business with duct-tape systems, this conversation is for you.

Learn more about Jenn: https://www.jennbeaupre.com/

Jenn's Vocal Coaching: https://linktr.ee/rozettesaaangs

Listen to Jenn's new Single 'Here' https://bfan.link/here-10

Follow Jenn on:

Youtube: @RozetteSaaangs

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rozettesaaangs

Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@rozettesaaangs

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rozettesaaangs

All the music you heard on the show today was written and recorded by Melody Edwards. 


Hey Bizfit! Let’s Stay Connected

Facebook: @businessmisfits

TikTok: @thebusinessmisfit

Instagram: @homeserviceva

Connect on LinkedIn: @melodysedwards


Find all my things: www.melodythings.com

Melody Edwards is a lifelong entrepreneur with a sparkly brain and a passion for building purpose-driven businesses. Over the past 25 years, she has successfully started, acquired, operated, and sold a variety of unconventional businesses, ultimately leading her to co-found HomeServiceVA.com with her first assistant, Din. Together, they built the company they wished had existed when they first started working together—a virtual assistant matchmaking agency that helps entrepreneurs streamline their operations with effective systems and talented virtual collaborators.

Being diagnosed with ADHD as a young adult changed her life. With newfound insight and understanding, Melody set out to master her brain's unique wiring, creating systems that allowed her to thrive in the "sparkliest" parts of her brain while delegating tasks that drained her. One of the most transformative decisions she made was hiring an Executive Assistant, which expedited her impact by allowing her to focus on the big projects and ideas that energize her.

Through her podcast, The Business Misfits, Melody shares insights from her decades-long business journey and interviews fellow unconventional entrepreneurs to empower others to embrace their inner "Bizfit" and build businesses on their own terms. Her mission is to help purpose-driven business owners craft their path with creativity, intuition, and heart.

Outside of business, Melody is a creative human who loves ALL THE THINGS… friends, AI, singing, bike rides, camping, crafting, ice cream, and building things. She lives in Western Massachusetts with her husband Matt, their children Sophia and Max, and their dog Shaun.

You can find all her things on www.melodythings.com

Transcript
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You know, social media platforms have changed so, so rapidly

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and do change so rapidly over courses of weeks,

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months, years is like a huge stretch. One

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interesting thing to note is that it used to be more

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significant. It used to matter more to creators, how many followers

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you had. Now that has turned into much more of a vanity metric. Why

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do I say that? Because pretty much all platforms, I think at

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this point no longer show your

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content to your followers. They have different algorithms.

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I know, but now that's very challenging when people say, well,

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you have X amount of followers, why do your videos have only this view? Or

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what? And it's because hello business

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human. Are you a misfit? A person who wants to

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make a difference in this business world? Are

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you one of the unconventional, the visionaries, the quiet

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innovators, the heart centered leaders, the purpose driven, the

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community builders, the givers? Then

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you are my people. I used to think business was

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a secret formula to be discovered and followed. But now I know it isn't a

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set of rules. It's an exciting creative adventure and

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I want to be on that adventure with you. I am your lady of business.

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Melody Edwards, welcome to the Business

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Misfits podcast. Why, hello

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Bisfit. It is I, Melody, your lady of business. And today I am

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talking with Jen Bupre, otherwise known as

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Rosette, that's her stage name. She is an amazing

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vocal coach, singer, performer. She's really

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popular in Asia right now. It's an interesting story, but

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also I met her in a very weird way and we talk about

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that in this episode. I'm not even going to go into too many details, but

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because I think you're just going to enjoy the conversation. So let's just get

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into it. Here's my conversation with Jen Beaupre.

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Welcome. I'm happy you're here. We are who we are on this

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podcast. So really the first question I always ask

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everybody is do you feel like you are a business misfit?

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Wow, that is kind of a hard question. Yes, is the answer. And

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I'm going to give you the because I think that

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it feels like to be wildly successful in

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business, there is somewhat some

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formula and I feel like I sort

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of refuse to follow it. Which is sort of a sad statement I've

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just made. Right. I've said to be wildly successful, you have to do this. I

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won't do it. But I think that while we all want to be

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wildly successful, we also all want to be wildly happy and

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wildly free and, and wildly excited about the thing that we're doing.

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So I don't know. Do you think it's possible I'm gonna put this back to

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you. Yeah. You just gave the definition that I would like. I actually don't

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believe that anymore. I do think there are things in business that you should

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know. I don't necessarily believe that it's a step by step process

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for success because that's what I was sold for a long time.

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And I've really chased the understanding, the business formula thing.

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And what I found in the end is that nobody really knows what they're doing.

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They understand how other people have done it. And there's so many ways

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to do it. I think there is some

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standard formula type stuff. We're not standard.

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And filling in those blanks is a very

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unique process for each of our businesses. Yeah. Well,

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you have to be creative. I think of business misfits as people.

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Like, there's so many definitions. For me, I think business sounds

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very serious. It's very based on transactions,

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money, you know, and for me, I really feel a sense of purpose in the

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work that I do. I want money. And also, I don't think I can

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do it just like, otherwise I'd have a job in some corporate world and it

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would be fine for me. I need that purpose. I want to help people. I

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want to serve. I want to have a legacy. Like, there's a lot of other

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things that go into it. And I think you are

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definitely a misfit. Yeah. And I think that

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people go into business for lots of different reasons, and they're all good

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reasons. Making money is a good reason. Having a legacy is a good

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reason. Because you enjoy doing the thing you do is a good reason.

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All of the above is even better. But I think

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how we stack those things that I just

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listed kind of determines how we run at it.

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Yeah. I think I want to talk about how you've been in business a long

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time, the business of your voice and teaching

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people. I think of you as a voice, but really you're

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more of a vocal teacher and instructor. You're both things,

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but people might know you because of your vocal instruction.

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What would you say that you're known for in your business world?

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Depends who's looking. Yeah. Because I've

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been building my career for a quarter of a century,

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and in that time, there's people who have gotten to know me as an artist,

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as a coach, as a speaker, as a

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cheerleader of all things vocal. So it depends

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how you kind of came into my world. And a songwriter.

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Yeah. As well. Yeah. And I haven't talked to A lot

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of people who have come from the creative side of work.

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And so the fact that you've been able to make your living off of your

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art in a way, even though it's not fully off of your art

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necessarily, like your songs all the time or whatever, but that's

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like really magical that you have been able to do the thing that you really

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love and make your living off of it. I'm glad you said that

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because that used to be a pain point that I

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almost felt like, I can't say that I'm in my

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passion, I'm not making money the right way to say

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that I'm doing the thing. If it's not off of being a

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touring artist on stage singing your own songs, which are on the radio,

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then I failed. But what I have actually made not just

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peace with, but sometimes love with is that I get to run

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around talking about the thing. I love sharing it with people who are

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wildly excited about the thing that I love lifting people up,

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showing people their own body, their own sparkle, their own magic.

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Also being able to have my own sparkle

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witnessed sometimes. Yeah. So it's a fun package.

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Well, I will say I met you on the Internet and I was just. Not

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on the Internet. This is the Internet. I met you there. I found

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you there. You came across my TikTok at some point or

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something and I was just enthralled by the way that

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you teach vocal technique and it's

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so simple and you break down really complicated things into

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very simple form, which is how my brain handles it

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best. And so I reached out to you to get a voice lesson

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and then you did not reach back for quite

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a while. You're revealing all my dirty secrets. Go on.

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Well, it's not though. It's like. It's kind of amazing because

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so many artists, you know, when you're doing this thing in any

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business, you reach a point if you're the person who does the thing, like you

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teach the lessons or there's a point where you reach capacity and

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you can't also answer the emails and do all the other parts of business.

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And it was really cool. I swear that I've never done that

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before, but I just really. And I was like, she is going to think

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I'm insane, but I don't know what I even said. What did I say to

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you, Jen, in that email? You sent a loom video. And I will tell

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you that you were a breath of fresh air and such relief. Even though

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I didn't believe because you were telling me like Hey, I can help you with

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this. And I was like, probably not, but I love that someone thinks so. But

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I also just want to say that you came into my world when

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my online traffic was really accelerated.

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So my business had been building for simmering for many years.

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And then I made one TikTok video about coaching and

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I don't know, like Papa algorithm smiled upon me on that

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fateful day in 2021. And that video just

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had such great reach. But that means that the systems I

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had set up were very not going to work

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with the amount of traffic. My schedules were in

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my top drawer that I printed out at the beginning of each week by filling

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little names into a template on imac pages program.

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And I didn't have systems, I just was like,

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oh, this person wants to sing this week. I'll put them into this

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3:30 spot. Well, you had systems. They worked for

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only you though. They weren't going to be expandable. And

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I also spent a good chunk of my career coaching, mostly

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in person locally, which is fine. There's a magic

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to that too. There's something really rooted and really wonderful about being

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integrated in the community that way. But I have to also

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admit that interacting with people internationally is real fun

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and I love working with people with different accents and it's been a

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blast. But you're right, they couldn't get onto my pages

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calendar. Yeah. With me data entering them, the

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emails. My life changed because of TikTok for sure. I think. And

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I don't know how far after, I don't even know at what point

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between the time I wrote you how long that had been going on, but I

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think it took you a couple weeks to get back to me. Did it take

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a week or two? Well, more from. Yeah, yeah.

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But the funny thing is, in my view, you were so

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professional. You were like probably

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unattainable for me to get a lesson. That's how I felt and I bet you

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that's how. But it's true. You probably don't see it that way because

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you're you, but because you were online invisible in a different

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way and I didn't know you or anything. I just assumed, wow, I want to

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at least try. It would be like my dream to get her to listen to

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my voice, which is somewhat my insecurity as well. You know, I've had

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a lot of things with singing, but I'm also like you. I'm stubborn and

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I want to push through the pain and figure it out, you know, even if

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it's uncomfortable. But you did finally get back to me. And

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I was also really underwhelmed by your pricing. I think back then

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I thought you were undervaluing your price, but it was because you were coming

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from. And this happens in business. It's happened to me so many times.

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When you've been trotting along for so long, you kind of

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go with what's worked in that scenario. And then

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suddenly you had this thing happen, this explosion, and you

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were still using the old things. Your mind was still there, but you were in

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a different place. Yeah, it was a really

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interesting supply and demand. Like, I learned for reals how

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supply and demand works. Like, I watched it unfold and as I

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adjusted my price, I found the thresholds where it

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was still too much and I was able to kind of

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play with that. But I'm kind of going to go sideways from what you were

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saying. But the algorithms on social media platform are forever

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changing. And when you are an online creator and service

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provider, which is still part of what I do, you are kind

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of sort of at the whim of algorithms. Now, I'm not saying that it is

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not my responsibility to find out new and exciting

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ways to engage people. It is my responsibility as a creator.

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Yeah, yeah. If you want eyeballs. If you want eyeballs. And algorithm it is.

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But all I'm saying is that the algorithm and the quality of your content

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and that whole magic can really dial the knob up and down

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rapidly of the traffic coming into your world. So that's just a

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factor that anybody else out there I'm sure will be like, nodding their head.

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Because me too. Yeah, yeah. Well. And what I

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learned. Okay, I need to stop think I'm not good. I am

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weaker in the areas of digital marketing because that's not something I

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ever had to do. It was very organic for me. So it's taken me a

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long time to understand that you do things like

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create things that people have to sign up for so that you can get their

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email address so that when the algorithm changes, you are not

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beholden to them. And oh yeah, I have

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not practiced that very well. I mean, I'm way better now,

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but that's not a normal, natural thing that we would think of as human. You

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know, like, that's marketing. So the fact that you are doing the

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thing you love, but then you also have to learn and figure out all of

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these other things. Plus you have to be a digital marketing expert in a way,

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as a content creator, that's like a lot to.

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Yeah. Yep. It's really overwhelming, but it is a

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very exciting game to play

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if you're willing to kind of bob and weave. But,

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you know, social media platforms have changed so, so

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rapidly and do change so rapidly over

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courses of weeks, months, years is like a huge stretch.

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One interesting thing to note is that it used to

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be more significant. It used to matter more to creators how

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many followers you had. Now that has turned into much more of a vanity

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metric. Why do I say that? Because pretty much all platforms,

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I think, at this point, no longer show

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your content to your followers. They have different

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algorithms. I know, but now that's very challenging

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when people say, well, you have X amount of followers. Why do your videos have

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only this view? Or what? And it's because you're not showing

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my 700,000 followers my video. Now, I'm not saying they

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would or wouldn't like it, but you're also not showing them, and they've

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expressed that they want to see it, but you're still not showing them. So

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that's challenging. What do you think the game is in that? Like, to me,

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if I want to see your content and if it's not coming up, I

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assume you're not making it because otherwise, since I'm following you, it should come up.

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As a creator. It's so crazy when someone says in the comment section, oh, I'm

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so glad you're making content again. I've really missed seeing you. And I'm like, holy.

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I've been posting three times a week for the. But I think that it

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is money. I think that it is the platforms wanting to monetize

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everywhere they can. So that's free, right? If they're showing

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to these 700,000 people, that's really lovely.

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Not free marketing. We've kind of earned it, you know? Yeah, I believe we've earned

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it for real. But for them, they're like, oh, no, you have to

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pay to show anybody. Oh, they followed you. Doesn't matter. You still have to pay

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to show them now. So we.

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Yeah, I've even shied away from that because on my

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TikTok account, when I really was trying for a while and I

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only tried really hard for 30 days, and then I got it to like

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7,000 followers, but I was really consistent. And then it

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never went higher than like 7,600 for like two

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years. And I was, no, it's hard, it's hard. And then I was like, well,

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why am I even bothering with this? Like, but let me tell you, though. Yeah.

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Keep in mind. Yes. To what you just said. It is like Exhausting, considering four

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people see it or whatever. Right. But also my following,

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actually both my followings for two different reasons, but my following

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on TikTok and my following on Instagram, both grew so rapidly in a lump

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sum that. That is also difficult because when people come into your

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world for one reason, they don't have a big

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picture of what it is that you do. So you can really be

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susceptible to unfollows or people being like, who is this? What is this? Why did

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I follow this person? So social media is wild. Yeah.

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A wild west of business. It is. And

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I'm always wondering, like, who's the actual expert that I should be following and learning

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about this from? Which is probably the social media

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company itself. Because there's always people in marketing who are like, I am the

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expert at this thing. I know. Exactly. Yeah. But their perspective

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is also skewed. Yeah. If you follow what's his

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noodle of Instagram, he does go in his stories and answer a lot of questions,

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which can be helpful. But as a creator, that's really interacting with the

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app. Some of his answers, it's like, that's really not our experience, but thank

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you. Right. For that. So I think there are some really great

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experts. There actually really are. Yeah. But it

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really depends on what's your niche, what's the competition like in your

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niche? What are the copyright liabilities in your niche? It's

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all different. Well. And you are focused. I wasn't.

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That was one thing. I didn't want to focus on one specific thing at

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that time. And so that is not always a good thing. Well,

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I don't want your mouth. Yeah. I want to talk about my dating life. I

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want to talk about, like, funny shit. I see. But should that

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be another channel? I am starting to think that I need to include

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it on my current channel, especially considering they're not showing each of our stuff to

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our followers anyway. Yeah, I think you should. Yeah. Maybe

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mix it up a little bit. Because you're just talking to whoever is watching that

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video. Yeah, sort of. And the majority of your videos, what do

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you usually focus on? Vocal coaching and my

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vocal performance, which is tied into vocal coaching.

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So I like to demonstrate techniques and explain what I'm

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demonstrating. I really like making coaching videos, but in

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2021 and 2022, they were getting a lot of traction.

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I've even recycled some of those videos and they just don't get views

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now. So people's taste changes. I

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personally think these apps are always kind of steering people in different directions.

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I mean, well, singers are very passionate about singing and

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learning to sing better. I don't think that's changed. I'm guessing that

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the audience, like you said, has. Yeah. And I think

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it matters who's watching your content. And you gotta remember that all

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the apps. This is a strange conversation. I apologize for kind of going

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down the social media road, but. No, I love this stuff because this is what

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people also need to know in business. Well, apps are in the business

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of lifting up creators who keep people on the

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apps longer, so they

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will steer people in the direction of where they're going

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to hang out a long time. So if they don't

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think that you are that person, they're not going

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to prioritize your content. Whether they're right or wrong, I don't know. They

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are smart. Like, AI algorithms are pretty smart. But, I mean,

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it is strange. I've actually posted a video that had 2.2

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million views on Instagram and I reposted it

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and got 11,000 views. The same piece of

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content. So, yes, people's taste changes and

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people's, whatever, the zeitgeist kind of changes, but that's pretty

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drastic. Yeah, that's drastic. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's

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different audience. Do you know who's seeing your stuff? Because I don't. I wouldn't

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know how to look. Yeah, I mean, you can see what region they're in,

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what age they are, details kind of a little bit about who they are. But

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I will say that's one of my failures, is I've never really

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wanted to look too much into that. Only because I just want to make what

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I think is important, and that's a shortcoming of mine. Wait. No, it is

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not. I do not agree with that. Well, it depends how you look at it.

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Well, you're. It's a weaker area. None of us are good at everything.

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Like, you should be doing only the things you're strong at to begin with and

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then have somebody else deal with that stuff for you or learn

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it, you know, because if you're not interested in it, it's like taking away your

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energy. But you would save your energy if you were

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potentially targeting the people who want to hear what you have to say. So it's

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like, it's a little bit of a cycle. But I am stubborn in

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that when I am interacting with clients, when I am

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coaching people and I see what is elevating someone or

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lots of people, or changing people's lives or the way they move in their body

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or their voice, that's the stuff I'm excited to talk about, whether it

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translates or not, or I'm just like, this is what people need to know. And

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that can be a difficult thing for service provider creators because we know

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what actually changes people's lives. But it's not always in a 32nd.

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Yeah. Because that's your responsibility as a content creator, is to give you a 30

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second shot that's going to woo. But the good juicy stuff isn't always

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30 seconds long. I'm not good. I just thought again, because I did start

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another page focused more on business misfits on TikTok. But then

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I spent a bunch of time last year just talking about my hysterectomy

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and that got a lot of views because nobody was talking about it. And then

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I was like, oh, but that's not business. But also I really want to talk

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about this thing because I wish I had known more. And thousands of

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comments and people just really trying to understand for themselves and what they

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were about to go through or is what they're experiencing normal? I don't know. I'm

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just telling you what I experienced. People tap into passion easily.

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And you're also talking to half the world's population with your

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thing. Totally. That affects half the world's population or that

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topic touches. So that's great that you did that.

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I think I heard it's a crazy amount of people. Like one third of every

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woman is going to have a hysterectomy before 60,

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which is crazy because if it's that big, why do we not

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know about these things? Well, just because perimenopause. Are we

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the first generation talking about perimenopause? Because I've never

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heard this term until like a few years ago and now it's

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everywhere. And I think that we're the first people to kind of pop

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the cherry of saying these things. Well, actually

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I'm mad. I'm mad that nobody told me. Yeah, I'm

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mad too, because we were told that menopause is challenging.

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Even that's been kind of quiet. Yeah, it was like we're more aware of

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that. So we're all waiting for a certain. This one moment when

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suddenly everything is over, right? Yes, but like your late

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30s and early 40s, your whole world is like

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crazy. But nobody said it would be. Nobody's explaining it.

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Nobody warned. Well, there is now. There actually is a lot more

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stuff now. Thank you to TikTok and

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social media. I mean, that's really what it was. And I think it was post

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pandemic it really became very popular because women

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were talking to each other and talking about. Yeah. So I

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don't know, I think that I'm really grateful for social media, for that kind of

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conversation so that I can talk about this on a podcast and I'm not like,

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embarrassed about it or something, you know, dude, social media. Is the best

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word, worst thing ever. Yeah, it is. It really is. It is

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the coolest, worst thing. Yeah. Well, one of the other questions

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I always like to ask, there's only two of them really, but it's, do you

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struggle with imposter syndrome? Has anybody ever said no?

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Yes. Really? Who are these people?

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They're very confident and also maybe a little

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spectrumy. I think that matters.

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Maybe. I also have a theory that we're all little

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spectrumy. Well, we are. All of us are, I would say more

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spectrumy. Yeah. Fair. Although

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sometimes I look at my life and I'm like, oh,

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I have never been okay with touching velvet. And you know,

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every time I think, so some people like touching soft

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things. Weird. Sometimes sounds and noises make

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me, like, light my hair on fire and run out of a room. And I

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think we all have those sensitivities. And I do that. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,

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that's not your question. Yes. The answer is yes. Imposter syndrome

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is legit. I think many musicians,

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creatives, business people, like, I'm kind of surprised anybody

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has said no. Who are they? What do they do? I'm serious.

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I mean, usually it's going to be somebody who's coaching.

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I mean, I can only think of a couple times. Most everybody says

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yes if they're my people. And it's not because I want them to not.

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I would love it. I love it when somebody says no. But I

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have to say there's something special about them. You know, it's not

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the ego. It's something else that's special because

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that's a superpower, Mel. Yeah, it is. Yeah. That's a full on

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superpower. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, how do you deal with it? Because you are

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so confident in your presentation, in your videos.

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Like, everything about you exudes accidental

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confidence if it's that, but you just really are confident. There

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are pieces of me that are really confident because I'm really excited about what I

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do and I've done it a long time and I'm really explorative and really

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curious and I love connecting with people and I'm always

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learning. But I will say that something I've used and I

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think that there's an argument that this is not healthy. And there's an argument that

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this is healthy. But I do try and keep my nose in my

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own business. And that is something that I took

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on several years ago because it's very easy to drown

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in all the other people accomplishing all the things and knowing all

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the things and achieving all the things. And that my

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success or wherever I am on my journey, I do

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have to keep in mind that it has nothing to do with other people's success

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and their journey. And we're all like, doing our thing. But I

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don't need to always stare at everyone's successful all the time.

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It's hard. I have gotten into the habit of hiding people

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for 30 days at a time that. When I can't see when

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they're doing, because it really does affect me. And it's not jealousy.

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It's none of that stuff. It's. I just know that I am on a wave

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of emotion every day. When you're a creative person, you have that high

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and you can do anything. But there's also the crash that comes at times

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for me at least. And so I kind of protect myself from that

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by. By just giving myself time off and then doing

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it again. You know, I think I will say

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that sometimes, at the least, I'm distracted

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by it. Yeah. And at the worst, I am jealous of it.

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It's. It's a gross thing to say out loud, but both of

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those things aren't productive. But I do think

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there's something to be said about celebrating each other where and when possible.

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I agree with that. Where and when possible. Yeah. And sometimes

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it's the best thing you can do is just keep your eyes on your paper

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sometimes. Yeah. Well, I mean, because what I do know is that

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people are great at presenting things online. And

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one of the things that some people really like about me and some people

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don't respect about me, I would say, is that I'm really pretty honest

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and open and vulnerable all the time. When I feel weak

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about something, or if I feel like this is not my strength, I talk about

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it because I know everybody goes through those moments. Unfortunately, the

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audience that I'm selling to in my world tends to

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be male. And they don't relate to that because that's not emotional.

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Yeah. It's emotion. And they want their more fact and data

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and stuff. So I think I've struggled with that. But I

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also don't not want to be myself. It's interesting. There's

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so many places I want to go with what you just said. But I will

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equate what you said kind of to the left. I'll say.

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For example, when I first started making content, I would use a

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lot of terminology, as we all do in our own field, as

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we have come to learn it or use it. But in

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my world, when you use terminology like mixed voice, head, voice belting,

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whatever, passaggio, these words, people either

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don't care or they get extremely wrapped up in the exact

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definition if you're using it right now. Funny thing is, to me, I'm trying to

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serve you. This is some free advice for you that you can scroll past or

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not scroll past, but there's some personality types who want to have

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pissing contests in the comment section if that word is being used

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exactly how they have been taught that word. Right. So I kind of equate this

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to what you said, because different brains receive

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marketing and information differently. Now, those people,

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the pissing contest about terminology people, they might be singers,

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but they're probably not my ideal person.

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And I've learned from that that it's best anyway

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to not worry about being so professional and use

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words that I use, words that matter to me. Like, if you

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want to explore what a twinkly sound might be, like, I'm your person.

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That's why you're my person. Yeah. Because that's. The

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language I would use is like, you know, that twinkly sound that you can make

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with your voice, you know, like, that's literally what people like me.

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Because it feels very. I'm musical for sure, but

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I don't always remember the terminology. Yeah, but. And I would

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argue again, my people, terminology smurminology. Yeah, we

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don't care about that. I just want to understand totally. If I say to

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you, hey, we need to make sure that your riffs are cut

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with a razor's edge, or I would say, yo, man, you sound a little

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mushy. Mushy poo poo. Everything's sort of blurring into the next thing. It's a little

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bit drunk. Let's see if we can straighten that out. That's my language. And I've

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learned that if I speak that language, I call in my people.

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You attract your people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that might be why

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you make it so easy to understand. It's not for everybody. It's for people

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like me or people who have a love of understanding. Like, when

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you did coach me, you actually changed my voice

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very quickly. You changed my perception of my voice because

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I'm somebody who always needs some level of validation from an expert.

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Otherwise, I don't believe it. Right. That is really

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helpful feedback. And you actually did touch my

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practice in a really important way in that when

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people would come to me, like yourself and in your realm where

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you. Where singers are already really highly functional. Because I cut my teeth

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on beginners, which many coaches or teachers do, as they

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are kind of coming up. So I cut my teeth on beginners. So when people

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started to come to me who were either very

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talented or had all the raw materials or anything around that,

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that coming back to your question, the imposter syndrome would come

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back where I would be like, how am I supposed to help this person? They

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already sound kind of great. Or, you know, they're already in the pocket. Like, what

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could I offer this person? And you were one of the people in

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that chunk of time that reminded me that

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not everybody needs do Re mi. Not everybody

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needs to learn how to cut a riff. One of my

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core needs, as I've established with my

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coach recently, is witnessing. I need to be witnessed and

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I need to have the opportunity to witness others. And

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I know that many people have this need and don't even often know they have

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this need. But additionally, what you said, because

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you viewed me as an expert or a knowledgeable

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person, it mattered to be witnessed and

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validated. But validated is even. Not even the right word. Just, I like

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the word witness Sounds a lot nicer than validation. Validation

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sounds like I'll never believe in my own ability. Or

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I just always feel like, yeah, it does. It's also like,

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I know that I have a good voice, but I always

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really struggled before with the stage fright I call, you know,

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And I mean, I've done so much work on it over the years, but singing

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one to one was always very hard for me. And

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even, like, I don't sing in front of my husband or my kids

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even now. Yeah. Well, I'm also not singing a lot right now,

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which I should be, but I have no problem for some reason now going and,

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you know, standing in front of a stage and singing at a funeral or whatever,

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because I do more of that kind of stuff and it doesn't scare me anymore.

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But, you know, it's always a work in progress. But I think the other thing

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that you really helped me with was the mind stuff that

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I don't think I understood how much mind stuff is involved with being a

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singer. And I don't even remember, Jen, was it like I called it my head

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in my chest voice, But I don't think that you called it thick and thin.

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Whatever you want. Yeah. I really struggled to find those

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places. And I would strain my voice or whatever it was as I was trying

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to find my higher voice. I don't really think you did.

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I don't really think. I think that. What did I do? Unsure.

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I think that you were just unsure if the thing was working, working. And when

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we're unsure, we resist ourselves. And then things get uncomfortable when we're

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resisting just whatever's happening, you know, there's been

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singers that have sat in front of me, like yourself,

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who are absolutely gorgeous like yourself, who even say things

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to me like, well, this other coach told me I'm not breathing well, and therefore

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I know I'm not breathing well. And this is wrong. And this is wrong. And

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I witness them, and I'm like, do you feel broken? Do you

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sound broken? Because it looks and sounds and feels good to me. And they're like,

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what? But someone said I was broken, right? Well, we're the people who

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trust the experts like, we want to. I don't. I know. I know. And

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the problem is, and I've learned this over the past couple of years, is that

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anybody who acts very confident and knows something

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about you that you're not seeing, maybe they are not the

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expert. Like, we are the experts on ourselves, really. And

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sometimes other people can tell us they're the expert or that they know

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something, but in the end, it comes down to us, and we're just

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getting, like, input from other people when we want it that we can take in.

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Like last year, I really came to the realization, like, I already know

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a lot of stuff. I know too much stuff. I don't need to know any

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more. Stuff this year is all about. I

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called it unlearning, but really, it's discernment,

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discerning what's important, what's important, to keep what's not.

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Yeah. Well, I just want to reiterate that

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using our voice is for everyone. And whether we're

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using it in speech or communication or casually or in

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song, everybody wants

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to feel like the biggest, most clear, most exciting,

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most connected version of themselves. And you are a great

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example of someone who is and was,

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but had a question mark. And that could be from something

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internal or that could be. I can't remember. Forgive me.

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But that could also be from something that has happened to us or something

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that was said to us. I can't remember. Was that your experience? I don't

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know. I can't even remember anymore. Yeah, there was

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probably something. Nobody told me I was a bad Singer at any point.

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But you might have or you might have witnessed someone's witnessing

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of you and interpreted however they reacted as something. My parents

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were both singers and my dad was very much a singer. And so

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I think. Right. That always was something. Some kids

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might just be able to go with it. For me, I was somebody who really

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was shy. A type. Yeah, I was very shy. And

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also. Anyway, that's what it was. Yeah,

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I mean, that's where it started. People will come to me and be like,

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hi, I just love singing so much, but I can't do it. When I was

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in grade six, in the Christmas pageant, the teacher told

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me that I was really out of tune and to just say watermelon, watermelon

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while everybody else sang. And ever since then I just know I'm really bad.

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And whatever that person's ability is at that point is almost

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irrelevant to the first fact that they don't feel like they

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should have permission to use their voice.

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So I love what I do in that it is all about

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empowering people to use something that is theirs. And

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sometimes we forget that we have that tool.

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Why do you think people in the West. Yeah, in the West. I

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shouldn't say Canadians. I'll just say Americans for now. You are Canadian though, which is

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why I keep mentioning Canada. Why do you think it is that we

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are willing to speak with our speaking voice and less

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willing to sing with our singing voice? It's very separate to us,

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it's two separate things. Whereas we've talked about the

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Philippines. When I visited there, the thing that surprised me the

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most was everybody sings and everybody loves singing and they

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acknowledge those two voices almost as I think of it as one.

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It's just a part of who they are. So I don't know. I have

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a guess, but I actually will be curious enough to look into

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this as I state my guess here in the west, you and

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I are of similar age, we came up a similar generation. And

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can you verify I'm Canadian, you're American, but can you

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verify that? When we were young we were kind of taught that

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classical music is the foundation of singing.

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Not speaking, not pop, but classical music.

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And when we use our voice in classical music, it is

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a lot different than where we speak. So that

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kind of created a general disconnect in many people's

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minds and hearts of how their voice is used musically

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and how their voice is used in day to day speech life.

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Crying, grieving, yelling at your dog lovingly.

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So I think I would wonder if in the Philippines they

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maybe didn't do such a heavy lean into classical music. I

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could be wrong. I could be totally wrong. But I think that that factor here

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in the west was a big thing, and that's. There's still

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a school of thought that pop coaches and pop singers get a lot of pushback

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on. Classical music is the foundation of all things, and you need to have classical

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music, but classical vocals sit in a place that is

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different than where we speak. Right. I don't. I don't

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speak like this. I don't speak like this. Right. I'm, like,

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rooted here. And, yeah, when I sing pop, I'm in the same place.

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Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. It's all the same place in. Not

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all. There's, of course, many shades of gray. But I think that the

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push into classical music made people see those things really

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differently. Connected. Interesting. That's my guess. Yeah, I wouldn't have thought of

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that. Now, I think we both need to research this point because there's probably

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a lot of places in the world where people. Well, it's also cultural, too.

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Like, singing is very joyful in other places. Here

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it's more competitive. I don't know if you looked at, like, if we're just looking

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at the West v Maybe versus the Philippines, but it's definitely

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not something that we've done quite as socially. And when I've been in Asia,

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there are karaoke. I'm not even going to say bars. They

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invented it. Palaces. Yes. Oh, yeah. These places are

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like Caesar's palace in Vegas. But it's

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karaoke. You can have, like, beautiful meals

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and there's, like, microphones with little, like, condoms on them

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so you can share them sanitarily with giant televisions

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and goblets to drink out of. It's very celebrated in

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a different social way. And this is just my experience. I also,

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to be fair, have never really engaged in social singing in the

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west because I've always pursued it as a career.

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But I still think that it is of different perception.

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It is. And we have vocal shame here. I don't think it's

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looked upon in the same way. Like, even when I lived in Morocco,

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I'm trying to think of the places where I've lived. People sing there, too, and

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they don't necessarily have a good voice, but it's a different kind of

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singing. And I think it's just so culturally ingrained that,

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you know, people just sing with joy because it's a part of your.

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Again, I love where I'm from, so I don't want to act

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like there's anything wrong with here. But we do

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make things very competitive. So, again, I can't speak to

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the Philippines. I didn't grow up there. I can't speak to Asia as a whole.

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I'm constantly learning new things and asking new questions questions and being curious about

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it. But I do know the West. We do like to make things

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into competitions. You know, if you look at shows like American

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Idol and the Voice and all of these shows, we're pitting art against

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other art. And that's fine. And it's highly

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entertaining, as those shows have been around for a gazillion years.

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But it does put people in a different mindset. You know, if I do

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a reaction video. I did a reaction video recently and talked about cursive

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singing, which is live changing vowels and

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adding and subtracting vowel sounds. And people in the comments

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bless them. Thanks for watching my content. But they'll be like, this is highly

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damaging to the voice. And this, like, stuff that I'm like, where'd you hear

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that? That's not true. And that's weird. And I can tell that you've watched

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these shows and you're now an armchair expert. Which thing with singing

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is we all have a voice, so we all kind of are our own little

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expert. I can't tell you. You don't know anything about the voice. You do. You

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use yours every day. But when it comes into the world of

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singing. What do you mean that's harmful? It's harmful to change the vowels.

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No, it isn't. Where did you get this? How did this happen? So

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we've now created this sphere of judgment and people who

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believe they know things that are kind of. No,

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not really. You know, just because you don't like the sound of something doesn't mean

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it's bad, wrong or dangerous. Right. People are like, it's damaging. This person

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needs to really be careful. They're going to lose their voice from changing the vowels.

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What? Well, and there's so many different ways of singing around the world.

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Yes. That are very unique and not like the way we sing

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here. So, Yeah, I don't know. I think everybody's an

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armchair expert at everything nowadays. So that's what TikTok

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and the Internet has done. You know, if you watch enough videos on dentistry. Well,

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give me my own kit. I'm gonna open my practice. Yeah,

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it's true. So can you tell me a little bit? Tell the

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audience about your adventures in Asia recently

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and kind of like what you've been doing there? And

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I don't know, it's such an interesting experience that you've

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had. Yep. It's one I'm really grateful for. I

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have a reaction show. That's how it started as a reaction show,

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where I initially started reacting to Chinese,

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Mandarin, and Cantonese singers. We have expanded

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into some Filipino singers, some Korean singers.

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But what it has allowed me to do is learn more

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about different languages and cultures and

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instruments and, I mean, it's taught me so much

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about how similar we are, how we all love to love

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art together. And to be quite honest,

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it's competitive there, too. People love to pit. It's just

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such human nature. We love to pit art against art. We just do.

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We just do. Yeah. But it's been a really neat process. I think we always

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have. What do you think you've learned the most about,

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you know, for instance, Chinese or Mandarin singers that

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is so different Because I've heard that type of music. It's so

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different from the way that we sing. Yeah, well, one of

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the most cool things I've learned, you know, whatever culture or language

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or country or whatever we've grown up in, we easily

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think that that's how everybody. That our taste is everybody's

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taste, and it's super not true. One of the biggest. If

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I had to make a really sweeping statement, and there's always, again, all

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kinds of shades of gray, but in a sweeping statement. People

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here have really valued big,

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bold vocals with riffs and runs and

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stuff like that, whereas with Mandarin singers, they generally

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prefer it to be sweeter and more gentle, more

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subtle. And even in songwriting, it's very different songwriting.

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In the west, we have really, like, strong, repetitive, shorter

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hooks. In Mandarin singing, they like really longer

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lines of poetry. And also the Mandarin

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language is such that they will almost always write the lyrics on

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the screen because you need lyric reference because there's words that

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sound so similar. Like, it's very fascinating. Interesting. Yeah,

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it sounds very complicated. Yeah, it is. It is neat. It's really neat.

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Yeah. Well, that's very cool.

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When I started writing songs when I was 14

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and was able to basically present my

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inner thoughts to people and have them

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witness and relate and connect,

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that is when I was like, oh, I don't know if I want to be

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a doctor. I think I want to connect with people like this.

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It's also so scary. I'm a songwriter, too, and I am

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always terrified to release a song into the world, like, It's My

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Baby, because nobody is always going to like your

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stuff. Right. People have different tastes, and so it's so

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Sensitive and so personal, at least to me, when I put something out into

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the world that I almost do it without pride

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because I'm scared of. I relate to that. You know what I mean? Like,

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yeah. And I think that, you know, what makes a good musician even

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more predominantly than their ability is their

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taste. And that's the tricky thing, is for most of

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us, our discernment and taste

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is at a higher level than our ability to actually create

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the stuff. And that might sound like a harsh, harsh

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reality, but that is sort of a reality,

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whether it's the time and the space and the money and the expertise

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that we've been able to surround ourself with to produce that art.

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But those are all factors. But for people like you and I,

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we know what's good. And by good, I mean

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bass level, in tune, sound, rhythm, high production value,

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blah, blah, blah. And then on the next level, we also know what's trending

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because we like what's trending. So when we create something,

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we can run it through both of those metrics. Is this in tune? Is it

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rhythmically sound? Is the production value good? Blah, blah, blah, blah. But then this is

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the doozy. Well, this doesn't sound like Sabrina Carpenter or

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Ed Sheeran or Beyonce or Blue. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We

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know that sound because we like that sound. But that doesn't mean we're capable of

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making. Making that sound. That doesn't mean that that's what our art is or our

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budget is or our access is. So we are

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putting out art that we actually know isn't.

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I don't know the thing. Yeah, well, for me, the other

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thing is I have to get it out. Like, I've had certain songs have sat

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in me half unfinished for years, and then

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suddenly it'll just be done and I'll pay to go into a

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studio and just try to get it out. Because it's almost torture

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to keep it inside of me. It shouldn't be, but. Because I don't do it

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as a job and I don't, like, do it. A lot, but it should be

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torture. It should be torture. I think that's the best mechanism. No, no,

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I just think you should be tortured about not putting it out because. Yeah,

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well, not. You should be. But I think that that mechanism of

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being like, yeah, if you weren't,

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you would have no burning desire and it would just sit in, blah, blah, blah.

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So somehow your inner thing has to get you to.

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It's telling you, this is what you need, this is what's going to be satisfying

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to you. So maybe you can make that voice be a little bit more loving.

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But I think it's an important voice. I think I heard somebody once

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say, and I don't know if it was an artist or a singer, but they

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said they feel like sometimes lyrics come to them,

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and if they don't capture them at that very moment, they fly away to somebody

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else. And that's happened to me so many times, so I have, like,

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tons of one liners all over the place. How do you write

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music? How do you write your songs? Well, I'm embarrassed a little bit to

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say that songwriting is something that I loved so much in the beginning,

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but it became really tortured for me because of what I

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actually just described. I was interacting with really

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great singers, and I was studying the best pop music,

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and that's not what I was creating. So it felt like

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I don't want to create it because it's not this. So as my

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career unfolded, songwriting got deprioritized more and more

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and more and more. You know, there's only so many hours in a day and

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days in a week, and I leaned into other things. So I still love songwriting.

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And I'll tell you, I love having songs, but I'm a little tortured when it

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comes to creating them. But I did put one out today. Please go listen to

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it. You did here? Yeah. Okay, well, I'm gonna link to it. I didn't even

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know that, Jen. You didn't tell me, so now I know.

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Yeah, it's called Here here. Okay, I'm gonna

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listen to it and I'm gonna put the link to the podcast. Thanks. Well,

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I think we've reached the end of the podcast, where I ask you

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a series of very simple questions that will define you for

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the rest of your life. So there's no pressure. Yeah. All you have to do

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is answer the questions very quickly. First thought. It actually doesn't define you,

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but whatever your gut tells you. Okay. Okay. Ready? Early

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bird or night owl? Night owl. Introvert or extrovert?

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Introvert. More time or more money?

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No. Type A or type add?

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Type A thousand. Saver or spender? No,

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I'm saver. You are a saver. Workaholic or recovering

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workaholic? These are hard. My people

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would say I'm a workaholic. People would say I'm a workaholic. I would say that.

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We wouldn't. We can never work hard enough. Correct. That's why I'm a recovering

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workaholic. Adventure or relaxing? I would like to

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relax into the adventures. Things or

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experiences? I would like to have things so I can do the

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experiences. Really? You're really cheating.

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You are totally cheating. Phone call or text?

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Phone call. Hashtag. Millennial. Plan ahead or go with the flow?

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Flow. Hands on or a delegator? Touch it.

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Compete or collaborate? I'm sorry? Compete.

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It's okay. Sweet or savory?

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Sweet. Quick thinker or overthinker? Oh, Lord.

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Over, over, done. You did it. You won.

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And I know they're easy, but not easy. We're also

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complicated. We think of ourselves as also complicated. Yeah, we're

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both of these things. But there's always a base. Like, I am

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a workaholic who calls herself a recovering workaholic. So

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I'm both of those things. One time I was playing a gig,

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and I was on a set break. I overheard somebody say to my sister

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who was there with me, oh, my gosh, what's it like being

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close to someone so extroverted? And my

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sister was like, jen, oh, she's an extrovert for pay.

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Yes. Oh, my God. And I remember hearing this from, like,

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around the corner, and I was, like, wheezing, laughing, because I'm like,

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fair. Fair call. Yeah. I fill my cup

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in an introverted way. I fill my cup in small groups or alone or quiet

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times. But I do love to be connected in big

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ways and on the stage and touching people and connecting with people.

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But I think ultimately, it's how we fill our cup. And I think I fill

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my cup in an introverted way. I'm the same way. I

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can look extroverted. I mean, maybe I'm not, but I am

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surprised that you say you're an introvert just because

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visibly, everything about you just is energy. Right.

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But I think of it as, like, what is draining my energy. I love

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giving my energy and helping people, but when it's all

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drained, I'm not an energy vampire. I don't get my energy from stealing

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other people's. I need to go and reset and spend time

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alone and do my own thing. Well, we're givers. Yeah, I'm

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definitely a giver, and you're a giver. We're both kind of coachly

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in our worlds, and coaching is amazing, and it's such a

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fulfilling, rewarding way to connect with

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people. But it empties the cup in a beautiful way,

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is what it is. Yeah. Well, I love you

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so much, Jen. I appreciate what you are putting out into the world. I really

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think that you have a lot of sparkly magic that has touched so

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many lives. And I feel like, especially

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in my journey as a singer, just even having a little bit

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of time with you at the beginning of our relationship, to understand

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my voice better. Even though it's in me, it's like I get

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to understand me better because of something that you taught me. So

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I really appreciate you. Well, I appreciate you back. And you're one

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sparkly MF too. And you have a beautiful voice and

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a beautiful heart and are so darn generous. So thank you for all you're

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putting out in the world too. And thank you on behalf of all of the

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creatives and entrepreneurs who you've touched. Thank you.

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Listen Bisfit, if you believe in the mission of this podcast, I need you

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to like and subscribe right now. Pause this. Go find the podcast.

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You might already be there, which is is easy. Just go like and subscribe. And

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if you really, really believe in it and you want bisfits to unite and change

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the whole business world, please rate it. Rating is the best

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way to get the word out to attract more like minded misfits like you and

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me so that we can overthrow the takers of this world who currently

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dominate the business universe. I know I sound like I'm

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some courageous lady of business. I am not. I can't do

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this alone and I don't to want want to. I need you. And we need

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a coalition of fellow Bisfits. So do it now. The quicker we

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take action, the quicker we can change our business world.

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Now let's go do great things and I will see you next week.

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I'm a misfit. I'm a misfit.

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I'm a misfit. I'm a misfit.

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I'm a misfit. I'm.

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I'm a misfit. I'm a misfit.